If anyone is confused about the Bible or what something means I'd like to take a shot at finding the answer. Try not to send too many at once though. I like looking up things in the Bible, and maybe I'll learn something new.

How many signs will there be in the Apocalypse

None. Revelations was meant to be an inspirational story, nothing more.


My question: How many levels are in heaven? Is there a 'purgatory'? and Can you get salvation after death?

Catholics believe that because pope Paul I said that any man who has paid for his sins in dieing can work his way into heaven while in purgatory but since there is no actual reference to purgatory in the bible I do not believe that it exist.

The "end of the world" happens way after the rapture. It's commonly mistaken with the rapture. Read Revelations for several signs, and more information on -last days- and the differece between that and the -end times-

I don't really have a specific number at the moment.

Some things to look out for would include the Temple being rebuild for the third time, right not the "Dome of the Rock" (Islamic mosque) is in the same place as the first two that were destroyed.

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The Bible contradicts the teachings of purgatory and salvation after death.

Levels of heaven seem to be interpreted as realms:
sky
space
spiritual/heaven

I've also heard it being seperated into

-this universe realm
-the area where the fallen angels and satan are (being the "prince of the air")
-and heaven (God, angels, ect)

Angels have been mentioned as going to and from heaven and being slowed down by the enemy and his fallen angels which might lead us to believe the area between where we are now and heaven would be the area where fallen angels are.

Wow I didn't know that lol 4 levels of heaven

Four? I listed three...

Well yes and no. Purgatory, by name, isn't found in the bible. The catholics just gave it that name becuase there was no name to the place. However there are a few mentions in the bible where there is a place where the dead wait to be judged and one passage in particular that states that the dead will rise up and be judged again. The word 'again' is pretty significant here and backs the idea of purgatory.

Not at all.

I know I probably shouldn't ask questions that I can already answer, but I'm always leary of people that try to offer answers for bible questions.

According to the Jewish teachings there are 7 levels in heaven although some books say 12. I can't name them off the top of my head right now though.

I'd like to ask for scripture on that.

Paradise might be refered to for those who died before Jesus came and they could accept him (as well as the theif who died on the cross with Jesus and accepted him), but isn't mentioned for any other purpose. There are mentions of people sleeping in Christ (dead and have salvation, while they haven't yet gone to heaven because there hasn't been a judgement yet).

I'm not on my computer so I don't have all my notes in front of me, however I do remember one off the top of my head.

Revelation 20:13 (New International Version)

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Yes, the day of judgement. Nothing differing about that though.

I just don't get where the idea of purgatory and salvation after death comes from. I would assume the dogma and traditions integrated it into the practices of Catholicism, but without scripture I don't see how it has any foundation as far as the Word of God.

I think this could be helpful/a really good debate. I'm going to pin it.

I gave you scripture. This isn't a case of people who have died and have salvation because there would be no need for a judgement.

I Cor., iii, 11-1,5: "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

Matthew 12:32: "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."


Also why do we have prayers for the dead if they are meaningless?

making a gathering . . . sent twelve thousand drachmas of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead). And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (II Mach., xii, 43-46)

'My Father will give unto them all the life, the glory, and the kingdom that passeth not away,' . . . 'It is because of them that have believed in me that I am come. It is also because of them that have believed in me, that, at their word, I shall have pity on men.' The Apocalypse of Peter

Talking about the rewards you will get in heaven for doing things for God.

Not really sure why you think they wouldn't be judged for this.

There is a story where someone fasted for a time while someone was sick, but after they died he got up and asked for food and ate. When they asked him why he stopped fasting he said that while the person was alive there was hope, but after death it doesn't do any good. I'll have to look that up.

[Edit]

I found it-

I'm still kind of confused as to how some of your quotes have anything to do with the subject.

Read up on the judgement, and being asleep in Christ.

Sin is erased, so what need would there be for a purgatory anyway (even though I still haven't found scripture specifically supporting purgatory or even something like it).

More scripture on judgement day:

Just something interesting to know, some extreme Protestant teachings refer to the Catholic church's "the great whore" for their rituals and traditions as well as dogma and leaning into their own understanding that isn't proven by the Word of God. :blink:

Apparently you didn't make the connection so let's try again.

I Cor., iii, 11-1,5: "For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

The bolded part is relevant part.

Again connection missed.

Matthew 12:32: "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come."

Again the bolded part is what you need to concentrate on.

You're gonna have to be more specific.

I just wanted to key into what KB is saying here: SAVED...BY FIRE. This is the literal definition of "purgatory"--a cleansing (the image is often a cleansing by fire) that results in salvation.

Sure, this may not PROVE purgatory, but with this passage in hand, Catholics will maintain that there is at least some biblical merit for the idea of purgatory.

Saved by Fire-
Sins forgotten, Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice (before they sacrificed and burned offerings before the Lord), God not holding the sins you asked for forgiveness for against you.

Micah 7

There is no need for a purgatory when your sins are forgotten. All you have to do is ask.



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There's a saying:

Stay prayed up

To add a skewed slant on things...

If there were a purgatory...

and it was possibly either the area which men could further atone...

or simply be the que for entry into the gates pending judgement...

that time likely almost irrevelant yet there is a wait...

so what happens to those that are waiting and are they simply "there"?



And I like to think that the whole "life flashing before your eyes" thingy is based upon a man's whole works upon this Earth as being a measured thing, weighed upon some higher power's scales and/or possibly our own judgement passed against ourselves to determine our worthiness for a heaven, hell, purgatory, blank, blank or reincarnation (enter whatever else you might hold true into the blanks).

Besides, when you strip away the conscienceness and pride of the living reality, who's to say we aren't all part of the greater scheme and selflessly doing what we must?

Ah but in the passage some men's work held against the fire and they passed into heaven, but the ones that did not hold against the fire had to be purged by the fire.


The passage is pretty clear that some will not need the fire and some will. If both are saved then what was the purpose of the fire?

Men's work will be held against the fire.

Helping when you are either forced to do something good for someone else or when your heart is not in it, God doesn't reward you for that.

The purpose of the fire is to show you what you get rewarded for in heaven, sometimes refered to as "Jewels in your Crown".

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RancerDS
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Could you be more clear with that? What specifically do you want to know?