I had dinner with a good friend last weekend, and we had a great time talking about philosophy, religion, politics, and all the kinds of good things that we discuss here on this very board (don't worry Deltasix, I've invited him here, but he really doesn't spend any time on computers). At one point, our conversation turned towards our personality types, and our general behavior in social situations.

My friend is by no means any kind of social outcast. However, he does have a "problem" with always having rather complex philosophical problems constantly running through his head. When talking with him, mundane topics (weather, sports, working out) turn into rather substantial conversations about how we perceive the world and react to it. He can't just talk about the weather. He has to talk about something more.

I'm similar, but mostly in the sense that when I talk with someone, I want to really get to know them. What drives them? What are they passionate about? What do they want out of life? What are they doing to get it?

He and I encounter a similar problem then, when we meet new people. We both want to know more than what the standard social contract allows for. We want more than just "where are you from?" and "what do you do?" My friend has serious problems trying to sustain this kind of small talk, and although I can carry it on for a while, it's utterly exhausting for me to do it for too long. If I'm at a bar and I meet an attractive girl, I'll be bored within a few minutes if the conversation doesn't turn into something "deep."

I understand that it would be socially awkward to go up to a random stranger and ask something like, "So what is your most traumatic memory?" I have enough social awareness not to start up a conversation with, "So what do you think about abortion?" I know that if I'm playing a game of poker with some acquaintances, suggesting that the game mirrors Wittgenstein's philosophy of language would be somewhat pretentious. I know also that the small talk has its own place in society. I find nothing inherently wrong with talking about the weather, or sports, or even which celebrity cheated on whom. In fact, this kind of "idle chatter" can be in fact quite useful. I know that we can't "be deep" ALL the time. But that's not my complaint.

Rather, I wonder why it is that conversations in the public sphere (especially among people my age--early-mid 20's) almost NEVER turn to anything that in my opinion REALLY matters. Good table manners, after all, are to avoid conversation about religion and politics. But what could matter more? What could be MORE worth talking about?

Some people argue that these things are too personal--that people get too heated or too angry to speak civilly about these things. Perhaps that is the case, but I think that's partially because they talk about these things so seldomly. I think it's also the case that people are so unwilling to hear points of view that challenge their own, so afraid of being dumb, of being misinformed, and worst of all-- of being wrong.

I suppose that's that this forum (and forums like it) can be a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that WE get to discuss any host of different issues freely, and while we may not change our views or our opinions too much, we are at least exposed to different ones. The curse, however, is that we in a way drive a bigger wedge between us and the rest of the social sphere--we gain more experience, more knowledge, more diversity of opinions, and as such gain become more and more comfortable talking about these kinds of things. I can't speak for the rest of you, but for me, the resulting effect has been that I feel more and more removed, distant, and out of place when I engage with the chit-chat of the everyday world.

This may sound cliché, but avoiding deep questions is a self-defense mechanism. When discussing a deep topic, what you think and feel come out. Even if it is subconscious, any sane person ponders about what others think of them. The deepest discussions are usually with people you are close to, because you feel less of a potential threat emotionally. Some people are stubborn and really don’t want other opinions to be heard, but more people don’t what their feeling judged and criticized.

I know what this is like. I mean, minus the bar hopping that you do, I have more or less the same issue with people, I want to find out more about them that is normally socially acceptable.....ever. Like, not even an opening conversations about God[s], Politics, Ethics, The Foundation of the Metaphysics of Morals, etc. thats more of stuff you can't breach with a person hardly ever, for most don't even think about it.

I think Lunatic does have a pretty good point though, about it being a defense. When I first got into philosophy, I think I read a bit too much Camu and Satre, as well as too much Marx and Netizche. I would think off-hand that most people (like myself) would find philosophy grossly depressing at the start of it, and before one can accept such ideas and "just ideas" that can be applied differently, they don't care for a disucssion of it. Ever.

And seeing how most people don't.....err....whats the word...
Think.
The oppertunity for discussion rarely, if ever, arises among people you "just meet."

I utterly loathe the outside world. I'm in no way a cave creature, who only comes out of his room for food, in fact I surprised my mom the other day when I went with my youth group to Scandia and she said I was actually "Social". But that's what I loathe about the outside world. I have to be social. I can't talk about what I really want to talk about. It's more like this:

(Mid conversation)
Me: So when do you think the end times are coming?

Them: Uhh....I don't know. Hey you play any instruments?

From there on I use music as a defense mechanism, and forget that I ever spoke about anything remotely thought provoking. It's a chore. But the world doesn't want us out there. They'd rather we crawl back into our holes and stay there.

Sometimes I think that not only do people not want their opinions heard and criticized but they don't want to face the questions themselves.

Facing the "deep questions" involves a lot--a certain acknowledging of suffering, of guilt, of death, of responsibility. It's easier just to avoid these things altogether...

I have similar problems with socializing as you guys do.

I really don't care much where one lives or anything of the kind. Age matters not and neither does their favorite colors or foods. I want to know what people honestly think about a wide array of topics. On occasions I've introduced political, philosophical and religious topics into discussions with then close friends. One of them virtually shut the door on me quicker then I thought would happen. Another, it was years ago, a year before I even applied to college. We had a short debate regarding affirmative action but never again did we really get into such a discussion.

A third person actually reads everything I send them and responds a little. The problem is that he doesn't seem to be.... how can I put this lightly.... the sharpest tool in the lot. Of course neither am I but I hope you get what I mean. It may just be that he doesn't accurately convey his thoughts or that we almost always seem to be agreement or close to it but, eh.


Back when I took astronomy one of the other students and I actually got into some discussions on social norms and things of the kind really only knowing each others name.

In another class I interrupted a discussion had by three students to make corrections on the topic of sexual assault when one student said that it doesn't happen to men. After I went through with my little speech she still didn't want to believe but that's fine, all beauty no brains really isn't anything new to me. I mean, it was clear that she read nothing on the topic to start with. The irony being that the 3rd student (the 2nd being one who said if a woman were to rape him he'd consent....which it wouldn't be rape then dumbass) actually sought me out once or twice to talk to. So there are some that probably want such discussions, it's just that they appear to be fewer in number.

Whether you can dive into deep thought topics early on isn't so much about if you just met them or not as the timing. How many people go to bars to be intellectually stimulated? Try taking courses not for degree purposes but educational purposes. The difference being that they don't test and it's just out of interest. You very well may find someone there who will want to dive right into the topics you have an interest in.

I share your social awkwardness insofar that I like to talk about serious things at parties and stuff. With my friends I'm not really bothered to talk about them myself. This forum isn't as active as I'd like in replying to topics that I've been interested in however I seem to be somewhat of a topic killer though- there have been a few topics where I've replied and then (to be dramatic) f**k all has happened afterwards.

I know this one, I suffer from it too. One of the problems I have is that, among my friends they do like to talk politically at least, and often verging on philosophically, but while they've never read anything philosophical, I have, and if I ever relate something we're discussing to any theories or philosophers, they get intimidated or indignant (depending on which of them it is)...even if I do it in a way more like "actually I was reading an article that said something similar, only that guy thought..." Tis greatly annoying at times.

Nah, I don't think you are a topic-killer.

Not many folks post or avoid posting on threads just because someone else had. The exception was probaby my harrassment of one member who's went to back making posts on the forums where we'd originally met.... was bad about givin' him a hard time, ya know? It was all in argumentative fun.. devil's advocacy and all.

But he'd said something about being tired of debating everything. So, later had noticed that some folks here either post some in-depth thoughts or something a bit more superficial. I'd avoided certain threads for a time because I wanted to read other's thoughts.. before stating mine. Other threads are of little to no interest.

However it works out, don't think there are any thread-killas here. And I'd rather read a long, drawn out post if that is your position versus the quick little one line quips where a poster tries to sum it up succinctly.

You do have a very eloquent way of expressing your ideas. While my vocabulary always needs improvement, it is only interesting to look up all of the words you might use if the general point is of interest. It's like my going into whether the Strategic Petroleum Reserve might be a manipulative tool for keeping crude oil and refined products artificallly high at a Texas Hold'em tourney. You get a lot of blank looks because the are thinking poker, not economics or politics. :) And it never hurts to talk "down" in layman's terms.

I am another of this clan of outcasts. I am the guy that responds to the question: "How's it goin'?" with something akin to "Do you really want to know how it's going with me? If so I'll tell you, but you have to listen and respond." Or, "I'll tell you how it is going with me, but I'd really like to tell you about what I am doing about it."

Imagine the looks, and the responses. But, in truth, this challenge is an attempt to engage another person in active argument, debate or....ummmm, what's the word?

Oh, yeah. Thought!

I believe that, of all the offenses we commit against one another these days, the greatest of them is that we simply do not talk to one another. From the simple to the sublime, we avoid realized discussion and debate. When did we decide that it was anti-social behaviour to disagree? Or, for that matter, learn?

This Forum is a precise example of just what can happen when we stretch out our beliefs, and throw them up and see how they land. One of the "knocks" against such activities as this (besides the incredible waste of time, you see) is their two-dimensional nature. Where is the "live" interaction? Isn't this just a safe place to vent?

I can only say that, to a person, those have said such things to me have never been here. Isn't that incredible? Total disregard, and dis-association, without the most basic investigation.

But that doesn't put a requirement upon me to conform in either my thinking or my words. I choose to engage, or dis-engage from the debate.

I choose to engage, with a view of appreciation that the access, the availability, and the acceptance of my willingness to think is here. I share, I learn, I grow. For just way too many, that is too much to ask, or expect.

The good news is that, in every life, that changes by degree. I have no desire to be right. I just want to be engaged in the process.

Well said.